Ship names

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Ship names

Post  Vympel on Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:59 am

Hi guys,

I made a point on the old wiki of correcting the articles so that the names were the proper translations, rather than the (frankly, often nonsensical) Japanese transliterations that sometimes result from the show. That said, I definitely think that this layout:-

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Is awesome, and should be followed for all ships - its got the proper English name, the Japanese name (I can add all of these, have them all at my disposal) and at the bottom its got the alternative name(s). I think this is the way to go for all ships. Its just a model article, IMO.

EDIT: and whilst I'm at it, Hermodr and Hermossr is the same ship. Just noticed whilst I was adding some of the Japanese names.

DOUBLE EDIT: or we could have the transliteration up top as the title and the alternative (proper) name down the bottom, either way.

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Re: Ship names

Post  kine on Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:40 pm

Hi there,

Is awesome, and should be followed for all ships - its got the proper English name, the Japanese name (I can add all of these, have them all at my disposal) and at the bottom its got the alternative name(s). I think this is the way to go for all ships. Its just a model article, IMO.
Thanks. :) Just so there's no confusion, though — the 'proper English name' you see there is derived from the DVD subtitles, not from real life. It is just a happy coincidence that in this case the two are the same.

Canary and i had been discussing this (names in general) for a bit and i'm not sure that we've come to a conclusion. My position is that the DVD subtitle names should win by default, because they're newer and usually better, but that we should have the ability to use the LaserDisc subtitle names instead, if the DVD ones are messed up. (For example, the DVDs call Dusty 'Dusty Attemborough', which is clearly wrong.) In practice, there are very few cases where the LD is better, so these cases would be exceptions to a rule.

Canary seemed to lean more towards going with what's the most common in English fan usage, which in this case is the names that CentralAnime use (which are in turn mostly derived from the LDs, although they make several of their own changes).

I think this is probably something that we're going to have to get others' opinions on, because we both felt strongly about our respective positions. But we did both agree that we should not make up our own names — even if those names are true to life — because, even though some of the subtitle names are nonsensical, doing that invites all kinds of problems and has no 'canon' basis.

Sooo... for now i would say use the DVD names, if you have access to them; then put the LaserDisc name (and any common unofficial names) in the 'Alternative names' section, and put the 'real-life name' in 'Background information' like you see there. If we decide on something else, we can change it later, but if we all follow that standard for the time being i think it will be easier either way.

EDIT: and whilst I'm at it, Hermodr and Hermossr is the same ship. Just noticed whilst I was adding some of the Japanese names.
I'll give you admin access in a bit so you can delete one (i can't remember which is the DVD name, maybe pick Hermodr since it's closest, and stick Hermossr in the alt names).

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Re: Ship names

Post  Vympel on Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:45 pm

Thanks mate - pretty sure the DVD name is Hermossr (one problem with the Central Anime DVD rip, although its pretty fantastic, is that the poor guy has to put back all the ship / character name subtitles manually, and sometimes he misses somes - I've kept my older LD rips for that reason). I'll check before I do anything.

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Re: Ship names

Post  kine on Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:02 pm

Oh. I should clarify, when i say 'DVD name' i'm talking about the official Japanese subtitles. (You can see these in the Nemesis rips, the right side of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is an example.) The ones CA put in their DVD subtitles are almost 100% copied from their LaserDisc script.

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Re: Ship names

Post  Vympel on Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:05 pm

kine wrote:Oh. I should clarify, when i say 'DVD name' i'm talking about the official Japanese subtitles. (You can see these in the Nemesis rips, the right side of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is an example.) The ones CA put in their DVD subtitles are almost 100% copied from their LaserDisc script.

Nemesis rips? I've only ever seen the CA stuff, if you've got a link to the Nemesis rips I'd love to see em.

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Re: Ship names

Post  kine on Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:35 pm

I'll message you, not sure if i should link from here. :)

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Re: Ship names

Post  Vympel on Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:28 am

Ah cool, thanks got it. Any for the Gaiden?

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Re: Ship names

Post  kine on Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:36 am

As far as downloads, or name policies?

(I have the gaiden series but i've only watched about a quarter of the entire thing so i don't know all that much about it)

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Re: Ship names

Post  Vympel on Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:38 am

The downloads. I know for a fact the Gaiden has the same nameplates (for ships anyway) but they're not carried over at all in the Central Anime rips, unfortunately.

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Re: Ship names

Post  kine on Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:44 am

Not in a position to search right now, but i'll check when i get home :p

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Re: Ship names

Post  Vympel on Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:56 am

Cool - speaking of the Gaiden, need a citation code for the Season 2 story arcs - Spiral Labyrinth, Mutineer, etc.

Also, are the screenshots on some of the pages putting in from the Nemesis rip? They definitely appear to have a different colour scheme from mine.


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Re: Ship names

Post  kine on Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:10 am

Yeah the citation things were on my list. I'll try to add them in a tic

Regarding the screenshots, yes, all of mine are from the Nemesis rip. I had wanted to use the CA rip, because the colours are in fact better than Nemesis's (plus the name subs can be disabled in CA's, whilst they're burnt-in in Nemesis's)... but CA aren't finished yet, and i thought it would be weird to have a mixture of the two. So... for now i'm using Nemesis. Once CA finish their rips, i'm going to take on the dubiously-useful-but-important-to-my-mental-health task of replacing every single image i've uploaded. :|

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Re: Ship names

Post  kine on Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:32 am

Re: Citations

I actually do not have episode titles (and certainly not translations) for the second gaiden series, so these won't fully work. I've created the preliminary templates for Spiral Labyrinth and Third Battle of Tiamat, but in doing so i realised even some of the first-series ones we've got don't work properly (they don't support numbered citations). So i need to get episode titles, fix the number templates, and go over the whole thing again :/

Fortunately, i think the main OVA series is our priority for the time being

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Re: Ship names

Post  Vympel on Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:09 pm

Ok cool, I was just adding citations to the Destroyer article and Mutineer in Gaiden Season 2 is all about Reinhard's time on an (older model of) a destroyer and I thought it'd be relevant (since his destroyer is party of a larger squadron). It can wait of course.

Re: screenshots, I'll use CA screencaps myself too, by restricting myself to only the matters covered in episodes they've done so far.

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Re: Ship names

Post  kine on Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:20 pm

Hm. Right now i have that translated as 'The Insurrection'. I can't recall if i came up with that on my own or if i got it from some other site — i haven't seen that part of the series so i don't know the context. :/

Anyway, for the time being, why don't we assume it's Mutiny/Mutineer and do one of two things:

(a) Just add citations like {{mut|01}} where-ever they need to be — they won't show up right, but once i get it all sorted they'll update automatically

(b) Keep notes on the appropriate talk pages (in whatever format you like)

I know it might not seem like it considering i haven't even finished the Gaiden templates, but having citations is such a priority for me because almost all of the stuff brought over from LOGH Wiki is unsourced. :/

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Re: Ship names

Post  Vympel on Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:27 pm

Yeah, its a big problem, but we'll fix it Smile

I just added an image to the destroyer article - I tried to follow the guidelines, but I don't know how to include the image in a category of images similar to the one that already exists for series 1. Could you tell me how?

(I want to add at lest two other images - one for the destroyer's awesome missile armament, and one to show the two Valkyrie's its capable of carrying)

EDIT: further, what to do with the side-view .gifs?

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Re: Ship names

Post  kine on Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:39 pm

Oh. For most images i'll put something like this in the summary (in wiki code):

Code:
[[Subject]] <doing whatever, if applicable> in {{d|###|uc}}. ({{logh|###}})

[[Category:Images from Legend of Galactic Heroes (OVA) series #]]
Right now i don't think we have any Gaiden image categories, but you can just repeat the same pattern as above:

Code:
[[Category:Images from Legend of Galactic Heroes Gaiden series 1]]
[[Category:Images from Legend of Galactic Heroes Gaiden series 2]]
(No need to break categories down into specific arcs for the time being)

Also, i appreciate the copious citations you've put in the destroyer article, but can you take a look at the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] regarding the format for them? (Let me know if it's confusing.) Basically, our guide lines are closer to Memory Alpha's than to Wikipedia — you don't have to put a citation after every piece of information, just at the end of each 'block' of text where it's used.

For example, instead of doing this —

Destroyers were heavily armed, with 52 forward-facing energy cannons (split into four cells of 13 cannons each) and multiple missile launchers (LOGH: 'The Battle of Vermillion (Part One)'). Further, they embarked a pair of Valkyrie fighters (LOGH: 'Admiral Yang's Ark Fleet').
— do this:

Destroyers were heavily armed, with 52 forward-facing energy cannons (split into four cells of 13 cannons each) and multiple missile launchers. Further, they embarked a pair of Valkyrie fighters. (LOGH: 'The Battle of Vermillion (Part One)', 'Admiral Yang's Ark Fleet')

If you have two or three paragraphs that all the same source, just put one cite at the end of the last paragraph (but always at least one cite per header).

Hope that makes sense — let me know if there's a way i can make it more clear!

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Re: Ship names

Post  Vympel on Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:41 pm

Gotcha, will do.

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Re: Ship names

Post  kine on Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:11 pm

Oh, PS: Cites should go after full stops, not before

I will add all of this to the policy page, looking at it now it does not seem to convey what i'd wanted it to :/\/\/

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Re: Ship names

Post  Vympel on Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:46 pm

No probs. So yeah, what to do about those .gifs (which appear to come from that website) that are already on the wiki?

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Re: Ship names

Post  kine on Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:36 am

Well, i had thought we were just going to let them chill in that 'Images from LOGH Wiki' category for the time being. I didn't know until last night / yesterday that they were being put back in.

I would prefer that we avoid using other people's images without their permission if at all possible. At some point i'm hoping that someone comes along with enough Japanese skill to ask that guy if we can use them. :/

In either case, though, don't think we should use them as the primary images anyway (i had thought maybe put them at the bottom under a 'profile' section or something) — surely there are shots of all of them from the series itself that we can find.

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Re: Ship names

Post  Vympel on Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:43 am

Yeah, there's plenty of nice shots to choose from. I'll move them around. The approach I'm going to take is improving one article at a time.

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Re: Ship names

Post  Vympel on Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:41 pm

I've started looking at the Nemesis DVD rips, so I'm in a position to comment. I really think that their name subtitles, as far as ships are concerned, are the best. It gets stuff right - Cu Chulainn instead of Ku Horin, Beowulf instead of Beowolf, etc. I think if the names make sense in English / German and are correctly spelt, and also have support from the DVD - well there's really no question they're the most appropriate as the name that gets top billing. What do you think?

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Re: Ship names

Post  kine on Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:51 pm

That has more or less been my position, yeah. There are still some names that seem wrong in the DVDs (i say 'seem' because as Canary points out i don't have any actual evidence to prove what they should be), but overall they are closer to what i, as an outside observer, would expect them to be. My feelings in general sway towards newest-first — with a Dusty Clause preferably, but even without it i still think newest-first makes more sense than oldest-first.

(Of course, that would mean the remasters and Blu-rays would take precedence, which i of course am more than happy with. But at the moment we have no access to the official name subs from either of those, so until we do, the original DVDs are the best we've got.)


PS: If you feel like you're pretty happy with your position, could you add your comments to that Policy talk page? thx

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Re: Ship names

Post  Vympel on Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:48 pm

Sure- in acquiring the Nemesis rips I prioritized the battle episodes so I could check ship names, and I noticed whilst some were right, some were still weird. As far as evidence that they're weird is concerned - well, we really don't have much to go on apart from common sense. Take for example Kalnap's battleship in Episode 52 - it's Hermossr in the LD rip / CA DVD rip and its Hermoss (or something) in the Nemesis DVD rip. Neither of those names mean anything - but common sense (and Japanese fans Smile) tells us its meant to be Hermodr.

I'll put my thoughts on the policy page.

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Re: Ship names

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